[ROVERNET - UK] RE: rovernet Digest, Vol 60, Issue 22
Dirk Burrowes
dirk at vy-tek.com
Thu Nov 29 00:44:03 GMT 2007
One mans Rover is another mans Rolls
Dirk
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 7:13 PM
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Subject: rovernet Digest, Vol 60, Issue 22
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[ROVERNET-UK]
Today's Topics:
1. RE: And now, let's upset P6 lovers... (Lewis, Joseph (Michael))
2. Re: And now, let's upset P6 lovers... (Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton)
3. Re: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1 (Slatskars)
4. Re: And now, let's upset P6 lovers... (Vern Klukas)
5. RE: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1 (Robert Thornton)
6. RE: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1 (Warwick Brooks)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:11:54 -0500
From: "Lewis, Joseph \(Michael\)" <jLewis at wsscwater.com>
Subject: RE: [ROVERNET - UK] And now, let's upset P6 lovers...
To: <rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com>
Message-ID:
<1A1EBE4A9FAEEB42911D577E08CA7922025C947E at COB-EXV-01.wssc.ad.root>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Not a P6 owner, but it looks like Glen is lookin for someone to open up
a can.
J. Michael Lewis
WSSC
jlewis at wsscwater.com
-----Original Message-----
From: rovernet-bounces at lyris.ccdata.com
[mailto:rovernet-bounces at lyris.ccdata.com] On Behalf Of Glen Wilson
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 2:51 PM
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Subject: [ROVERNET - UK] And now, let's upset P6 lovers...
Importance: Low
Can I get an AMEN that rear brakes which are such a holy horror to
service might just be poorly designed even if they are technically
interesting and work really, really well? Couldn't they at least give us
some sort of access panel in the back of the base unit if they were
going to include all of those finicky little bits that slide in and out
and thread this way and that?
Is the P6 a lousy car? No! It was fantastic!
Was the rear brake design not thoroughly thought out? AMEN!
Be honest, now...
Free your soul and confess...
Glen
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:25:18 -0800
From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" <smokeandsteam at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ROVERNET - UK] And now, let's upset P6 lovers...
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Message-ID:
<204ec4390711281225o52aea23fv467db2dd4048c110 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Poorly designed is a bit strong - remember that the assumption when
the car was designed was that the brakes would be serviced by properly
trained mechanics who had the necessary tools and equipment to do the
job properly. If you have a hoist and all the proper tools and service
a few sets of calipers every year it's not too bad; where it sucks is
when you only do it once in a very long while, lying on your back,
with dirt dropping in your eyes and not enough light or room to both
work and read the manual that the job becomes (literally) painful.
I wouldn't suggest that a modern EFi system that is difficult to
service by the owner with a cobbled up laptop and serial cable is
poorly designed either - it was designed to be worked on by people
with specialised training and equipment.
If you want to work on cars where everything is accessible buy an old
Land-Rover - you can change the main bearings with the engine still in
the frame.
Aidrian
On Nov 28, 2007 11:51 AM, Glen Wilson <rovercar at comcast.net> wrote:
> Can I get an AMEN that rear brakes which are such a holy horror to
> service might just be poorly designed even if they are technically
> interesting and work really, really well?
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:43:53 -0800
From: "Slatskars" <slatskars at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1
To: <rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com>
Message-ID: <004101c831ff$6ac9a300$104d1518 at FAMILYROOM>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Please do not pick on the Pinto. The early Pinto's were great little cars,
particularly the 1971's with the 2000 engine. They did have some rust issues
in parts of the country that used salt on the roads, but then so did
everything else. The 1971 2000 liter engine with 9.2:1 compression, overhead
cam put out 100 hp stock and could be taken all the way to 200 with bolt on
stuff or 300 with a supercharger. Very good durable engine. Many went well
over 200,000 miles. The Pinto also had rack and pinion steering and front
disc brakes. I know about the gas tank problem, but most of the risk was
because almost all of them were hatch backs or station wagons with no
barrier between the rear section and passenger compartment. They recalled
and installed a fix by placing a cover over the front of the tank that would
divert the fuel towards the ground if rear ended. One spectacular car law
suite should not condemn a very good car. Yes, I still have an extremely
clean 1971 hatchback and a 71 pinto engine, transmission, rear end, front
suspension, steering, brakes, etc. in my Gazelle kit car. Love the engines.
Slats
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lewis, Joseph (Michael)" <jLewis at wsscwater.com>
To: <rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rover_net/
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:08:23 -0800
From: Vern Klukas <vern at inkspotco.com>
Subject: Re: [ROVERNET - UK] And now, let's upset P6 lovers...
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Message-ID: <a0623091fc37388d51013@[192.168.1.100]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
OTOH, it is worth noting that the Girling swinging caliper appeared
on only two cars, the P6 and the English Ford Zephyr.
Just saying 8-)
Yours
Vern
>Poorly designed is a bit strong - remember that the assumption when
>the car was designed was that the brakes would be serviced by properly
>trained mechanics who had the necessary tools and equipment to do the
>job properly. If you have a hoist and all the proper tools and service
>a few sets of calipers every year it's not too bad; where it sucks is
>when you only do it once in a very long while, lying on your back,
>with dirt dropping in your eyes and not enough light or room to both
>work and read the manual that the job becomes (literally) painful.
>
>I wouldn't suggest that a modern EFi system that is difficult to
>service by the owner with a cobbled up laptop and serial cable is
>poorly designed either - it was designed to be worked on by people
>with specialised training and equipment.
>
>If you want to work on cars where everything is accessible buy an old
>Land-Rover - you can change the main bearings with the engine still in
>the frame.
>
>Aidrian
>
>On Nov 28, 2007 11:51 AM, Glen Wilson <rovercar at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Can I get an AMEN that rear brakes which are such a holy horror to
>> service might just be poorly designed even if they are technically
>> interesting and work really, really well?
>
>_______________________________________________
>rovernet mailing list
>rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
>To unsubscribe, go to this web page, look near the bottom and follow
>instructions:
>http://mailman.nipltd.com/mailman/listinfo/rovernet
>Back-up list and photos at:
>http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rover_net/
--
Vern Klukas I'm a little . . .
Inkspot Type & Design
vern at inkspotco.com
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:10:28 +1030
From: "Robert Thornton" <R.Thornton at adelaidecitycouncil.com>
Subject: RE: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1
To: <rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com>
Message-ID:
<E5F39546C8FEF74FA71FC83582B2FDF213B13D87 at ACCMX00.adelaide.sa.gov.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
It sold well in Australia to start with (1979-81). But it soon suffered
in the harsh climate and conditions. Parcel shelves and dashboards broke
up in the hot sun. Many of the plastic interior fittings soon cracked or
distorted. Electrical systems failed. The cooling system barely coped.
The rough dirt roads in some areas soon took their toll on suspensions
and bodywork. Tailgates and firewalls rusted in the wetter areas. The
feeble AlpineAir add on aircon didn't struggled with the heat. The auto
box V8 - the only variant officially imported here - produced a measly
134bhp thanks to emissions equipment that dictated low compression
pistons, different camshafts, twin auto choke Stromberg-Zenith carbs and
retarded advance curves plus the dreaded air pump and egr systems. The
amplifier in the Lucas Opus dissy failed with the build up of
underbonnet temperatures. Series 2 cars didn't fair much better with the
fussy US style Federal injection system fitted in place of carbs.
But the shape was something else unmatched by any other production car
at the time. All the reliability and durability issues could almost be
forgiven when the inimitable David Bache styling was contemplated - not
unlike the equally engaging Triumph Stag, itself a product of the same
BL malaise. And thankfully for the enthusiast all the mechanical,
electrical and other issues could be addressed and overcome if one had
sufficient determination and enough dollars to spend.
Today SD1s are a rare sight on our roads but whenever one appears it
still manages to turn heads in vast numbers just like it did thirty
years ago.
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: rovernet-bounces at lyris.ccdata.com
[mailto:rovernet-bounces at lyris.ccdata.com] On Behalf Of Glen Wilson
Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2007 6:11 AM
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Subject: Re: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1
Lewis, Joseph (Michael) wrote:
> As easy as it may be to criticize BL and other British carmakers of
> that infamous era in automobile history, I have to respectfully
> disagree with any negative criticism of the SD1.
Michael,
Surely, you don't mean to say that there can't be ANY criticism of the
SD1? And I don't think it's fair to say that I intended to "smear the
proud name of Rover" by simply repeating a couple of things that just
about everyone who has evaluated the SD1 has said about it over the past
thirty years.
Rover was forced to work within a restrictive budget which limited which
design elements could be included. Rover used a new painting process on
the SD1 which wasn't as effective as it could have been since many of
the cars shed their paint over the years. The interior materials were of
poor quality. Cars that were not garaged ended up with dramatically
faded upholstery and cracked dashes. Mercedes also had cracked dashes,
but the SD1 had velour upholstery that quickly shed its fuzz and looked
like it had been attacked with a Norelco razor. The panel fit was
demonstrably inconsistent and tended to be atrocious. These are not my
opinions. They are facts.
I am not saying that the SD1 was a piece of junk or a terrible car. It
just wasn't perfect.
It was a beautifully styled car. It was extremely comfortable to drive
or ride in. It handled very well and was fun to drive. The amount of
useful space in the car and the practicality of the hatchback design
were fantastic. Our U.S. model got a new fuel-injected version of a
great engine. The car sold well worldwide for a number of years. Many of
the early shortcomings were properly addressed in updated versions of
the car. The SD1 had an illustrious racing and rallying history.
Your turmeric 1980 SD1 is a very nice example that has been loved and
cared for over the years. You've even substantially upgraded it with
things like those four-pot calipers. It looks fantastic in the pictures
on the web.
I've had a P4 and several P6s. I've had two SD1s that I completely
disassembled and one that I reassembled. All I am saying is that Rover
had to save a lot of pennies when they designed and manufactured the
SD1, and you can tell that they at least rounded off a few corners in
the process.
Glen
> My experience with my turmeric 1980
> has been tremendous. I've owned it for 17 years and used it as a daily
> driver for the first 12. I can only remember it being towed once in
> that time span. It has rarely let me down. Small items have come apart
> and bits have broken but in comparison to other cars I've owned
> (Volvos, a Saab, a Jaguar, 2 Sterlings) it has held it's own. The only
> major work undertaken was a new 5 speed gearbox installed ten years
> ago. Other parts have failed but they were primarily item that wear
> through time such as brakes, ignition parts, wires and hoses.
>
> One must also remember that the British were not the only country with
> awful auto manufacturing practices during that time period. Renault
> and Peugeot were little more than garbage cans on wheels during the
> 70's; Chevrolet made the Citation, Vega and other assorted rubbish;
> Ford made the Pinto!!!; Dodge/Plymouth somehow produced the K cars;
> AMC's stuff was so abysmal that they didn't survive the 70's; I rode
> in my friends mid-70's Fiat and he said "press your feet up against
the panel". Why...
> because I could see the ground under my feet through the floorboards.
>
> Maybe I got one of the good ones but I will never smear the proud name
> of Rover or BL from my experience with this SD1. It's all relative I
> guess.
>
> My two cents.
>
> J. Michael Lewis
> WSSC
> 14501 Sweitzer Lane
> Laurel MD 20707
> jlewis at wsscwater.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rovernet-bounces at lyris.ccdata.com
> [mailto:rovernet-bounces at lyris.ccdata.com] On Behalf Of JULIET KEILER
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:46 AM
> To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
> Subject: Re: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1
> Importance: Low
>
> Agree re build quality Glenn i guess you had to be around in the UK in
> the 70's to get a perspective of the industrial unrest and general
> malaise within the what was left of the British car industry. Not
> apportioning blame just observing and sadly the SD1 suffered
> considerably. A good quality machine ruined by apathy and internal
> squabbling.
>
> As you rightly say Rover were handcuffed by Jaguar into not producing
> anything that would jeapordise their sales (Oh if only the P6BS had
> been
> produced) and held them to (psychological) ransome by buying Pressed
> Steel who of course produced P6 bodies.
>
> Still it's all come full circle as Rover may be dead but at least went
> down fighting, Jaguar are almost dead (don't think it will be long as
> even Ford can't sustain their losses much longer) but thats as a
> result of indifference for their product on the part of the buying
> public........ the ultimate insult?
>
> Regards
>
> Alan Francis (partviking)
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Glen Wilson <rovercar at comcast.net>
> To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 28 November, 2007 2:58:36 PM
> Subject: Re: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1
>
> Alan wrote:
>
>> This show is well known in the UK but it is important not to take it
>>
> to seriously. It is designed to entertain as well as inform and the
> presenters (one in particular) are quite outspoken and opinionated.
>
>> Just take it for what it is quite amusing but not really taken
>>
> seriously.
>
>> Alan Francis (partviking)
>>
>>
> Alan is ABSOLUTELY correct in his review of Top Gear. Somehow, the
> absolute craziness of what they do causes me to enjoy the show and
> keep liking the presenters in spite of all the sarcasm.
>
> I hadn't seen all four videos when I forwarded them to the Rovernet,
> and
>
> I might not have done so if I had realized how hard they were going to
> be on the SD1.
>
> Gianluca, the SD1 may be less sophisticated that the P6 on PAPER, but
> I can assure you that the handling was excellent, especially for such
> a large vehicle. It was simpler in design due to budget constraints,
> but it really worked on the road. One review said that the SD1 handled
> like an MGB, and I thought that was a pretty good comparison. To me,
> the steering didn't have much road feel, but it was still quick and
> accurate. My SD1 felt like a much smaller car on twisty roads, even
> with
>
> elevation changes. Changes in direction were handled very smoothly,
> and the car just seemed to stick to the road. I have only had one
> experience
>
> running an SD1 against a P6, and the SD1 simply disappeared from the
> P6 in fast corners like approach ramps to interstate highways.
> Perhaps the SD1 simply had much better tires on it, but it just seemed
> to really stick to the road.
>
> My only criticism of the SD1 is that the build quality of the few cars
> we got in the USA in 1980-81 was terrible. Far behind the P6 or
> earlier Rovers in this respect. My SD1 had about half an inch of open
> space between the back edge of the front door and the center pillar,
> and that was manufactured in. The exterior paint and the materials
> used in the interior simply didn't hold up. And the SD1 was a very
> expensive automobile when sold in the USA. We never got the later cars
over here.
>
> All things considered, I think that Rover did an amazing job on the
> SD1 considering the budgetary and design constraints they were working
> under.
>
> Glen
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to this web page, look near the bottom and follow
> instructions:
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
> To unsubscribe, go to this web page, look near the bottom and follow
> instructions:
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
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>
>
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:12:33 +1100
From: "Warwick Brooks" <warwick at regscom.com.au>
Subject: RE: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1
To: <rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com>
Message-ID:
<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAN65lvB+yGZBsyfX1fj57PzCgAAAEAAAABucy/Udu/lFuaBoRiHR
aIQBAAAAAA==@regscom.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
As with many British cars from the past, a lot of them were brilliant
designs, poorly executed.... for a variety of economic, IR, and political
reasons. It must have been very demoralizing for the design teams of that
era.
A lot of what we blame on most of the British marques (and BL in particular)
can be laid squarely at the feet of Joseph Lucas. Okay, so the carmakers
elected to use the products of the Prince of Darkness, but in reality they
probably had little option.
If you can find a copy, Jeff Daniels' "British Leyland: The truth about the
cars" it makes an interesting read with a view from a different angle. It
was written in the early '80s and just as interesting (with hindsight) are
his guesses about the future of the company.
I beg to differ about Peugeots of the '70s. I can't comment on Renault.
The '70s saw the 504 (and to a lesser extent the 505) which had to be the
last of the great Pugs before the company changed direction. These cars
were immensely strong but light and nibble with incredible ride, comfort and
handling on even the poorest of roads; yet mechanical uncomplicated and
almost bullet-proof.
Regards,
Warwick.
-----Original Message-----
From: rovernet-bounces at lyris.ccdata.com
[mailto:rovernet-bounces at lyris.ccdata.com] On Behalf Of Lewis, Joseph
(Michael)
Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2007 3:54 AM
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Subject: RE: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1
As easy as it may be to criticize BL and other British carmakers of that
infamous era in automobile history, I have to respectfully disagree with
any negative criticism of the SD1. My experience with my turmeric 1980
has been tremendous. I've owned it for 17 years and used it as a daily
driver for the first 12. I can only remember it being towed once in that
time span. It has rarely let me down. Small items have come apart and
bits have broken but in comparison to other cars I've owned (Volvos, a
Saab, a Jaguar, 2 Sterlings) it has held it's own. The only major work
undertaken was a new 5 speed gearbox installed ten years ago. Other
parts have failed but they were primarily item that wear through time
such as brakes, ignition parts, wires and hoses.
One must also remember that the British were not the only country with
awful auto manufacturing practices during that time period. Renault and
Peugeot were little more than garbage cans on wheels during the 70's;
Chevrolet made the Citation, Vega and other assorted rubbish; Ford made
the Pinto!!!; Dodge/Plymouth somehow produced the K cars; AMC's stuff
was so abysmal that they didn't survive the 70's; I rode in my friends
mid-70's Fiat and he said "press your feet up against the panel". Why...
because I could see the ground under my feet through the floorboards.
Maybe I got one of the good ones but I will never smear the proud name
of Rover or BL from my experience with this SD1. It's all relative I
guess.
My two cents.
J. Michael Lewis
WSSC
14501 Sweitzer Lane
Laurel MD 20707
jlewis at wsscwater.com
-----Original Message-----
From: rovernet-bounces at lyris.ccdata.com
[mailto:rovernet-bounces at lyris.ccdata.com] On Behalf Of JULIET KEILER
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:46 AM
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Subject: Re: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1
Importance: Low
Agree re build quality Glenn i guess you had to be around in the UK in
the 70's to get a perspective of the industrial unrest and general
malaise within the what was left of the British car industry. Not
apportioning blame just observing and sadly the SD1 suffered
considerably. A good quality machine ruined by apathy and internal
squabbling.
As you rightly say Rover were handcuffed by Jaguar into not producing
anything that would jeapordise their sales (Oh if only the P6BS had been
produced) and held them to (psychological) ransome by buying Pressed
Steel who of course produced P6 bodies.
Still it's all come full circle as Rover may be dead but at least went
down fighting, Jaguar are almost dead (don't think it will be long as
even Ford can't sustain their losses much longer) but thats as a result
of indifference for their product on the part of the buying
public........ the ultimate insult?
Regards
Alan Francis (partviking)
----- Original Message ----
From: Glen Wilson <rovercar at comcast.net>
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Sent: Wednesday, 28 November, 2007 2:58:36 PM
Subject: Re: R: [ROVERNET - UK] British Leyland and SD1
Alan wrote:
> This show is well known in the UK but it is important not to take it
to seriously. It is designed to entertain as well as inform and the
presenters (one in particular) are quite outspoken and opinionated.
>
> Just take it for what it is quite amusing but not really taken
seriously.
>
> Alan Francis (partviking)
>
Alan is ABSOLUTELY correct in his review of Top Gear. Somehow, the
absolute craziness of what they do causes me to enjoy the show and keep
liking the presenters in spite of all the sarcasm.
I hadn't seen all four videos when I forwarded them to the Rovernet, and
I might not have done so if I had realized how hard they were going to
be on the SD1.
Gianluca, the SD1 may be less sophisticated that the P6 on PAPER, but I
can assure you that the handling was excellent, especially for such a
large vehicle. It was simpler in design due to budget constraints, but
it really worked on the road. One review said that the SD1 handled like
an MGB, and I thought that was a pretty good comparison. To me, the
steering didn't have much road feel, but it was still quick and
accurate. My SD1 felt like a much smaller car on twisty roads, even with
elevation changes. Changes in direction were handled very smoothly, and
the car just seemed to stick to the road. I have only had one experience
running an SD1 against a P6, and the SD1 simply disappeared from the P6
in fast corners like approach ramps to interstate highways.
Perhaps the SD1 simply had much better tires on it, but it just seemed
to really stick to the road.
My only criticism of the SD1 is that the build quality of the few cars
we got in the USA in 1980-81 was terrible. Far behind the P6 or earlier
Rovers in this respect. My SD1 had about half an inch of open space
between the back edge of the front door and the center pillar, and that
was manufactured in. The exterior paint and the materials used in the
interior simply didn't hold up. And the SD1 was a very expensive
automobile when sold in the USA. We never got the later cars over here.
All things considered, I think that Rover did an amazing job on the SD1
considering the budgetary and design constraints they were working
under.
Glen
_______________________________________________
rovernet mailing list
rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
To unsubscribe, go to this web page, look near the bottom and follow
instructions:
http://mailman.nipltd.com/mailman/listinfo/rovernet
Back-up list and photos at:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rover_net/
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To unsubscribe, go to this web page, look near the bottom and follow
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End of rovernet Digest, Vol 60, Issue 22
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