[ROVERNET - UK] P5 values again,
Dirk Burrowes
dirk at vy-tek.com
Tue Jan 15 01:52:44 GMT 2008
I think we all agree that the value of something is what someone is willing
to pay for it and is much more up to how bad the buyer wants it. A more
common classic like a AH 3000 which is a standard in over priced classics
only to be out matched by a Amphicar both as many others now have a standard
market price. But Rovers do as well just not as much history to support it.
I think my point is that while I agree with most of Glen's comments in
general a P5b Coupe even in bad condition is worth far more then the $1500.
A RHD drive one has not sold in the USA for less then 7k in reasonable order
in the last 3 years and they are fairly scarce. A LHD in Europe has not sold
for less then 8000 euro that I can find in the last 3 years that I have been
checking. RHD's have sold for as little as 1000 GBPs but in relatively poor
condition but in the UK there is a Hugh difference in price between fixer
uppers and nice cars in good order.
So where I sit there is small history relating to selling price for P5s even
in the USA that says some are under valuing the car.
Incidentally P6s have sky rocketed in price in the US for good examples.
I have not seen a good runner sell for less the $6000 over the last year and
1 3500S with a 5 speed SD1 Retrofit trans sold for over 10k. A 3500S on Ebay
sold for 9K twice in the last 6 months. So the demand is there and it was
not me who bought them.
In fact I would say that you are almost guaranteed between 6k and 8k in the
US for a P6 in good order. For a good example of a P5 3k to 5k a P5b saloon
if you can find one for 5k to 8k and the Coupe in running order 7k to 12k
(I paid more) A good example of a P4 6k to 10k and a P3/P2 for 6k to 10K
It is not that I am hoping that the cars I love cost more I just think that
they are selling for more dollars then many realize.
Maybe Kent and I are driving up the market prices
Dirk
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[ROVERNET-UK]
Today's Topics:
1. Re: P5 values (Glen Wilson)
2. Re: P5 values (JULIET KEILER)
3. This is annoying!! (Eric Russell)
4. Linus' 110 (Laine Colley)
5. Re: westlake head questions (Tomas B?rjeson)
6. Re: Value of P5 b's (Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton)
7. Re: P5 values (Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton)
8. Re: Value of P5 b's (JULIET KEILER)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 07:19:47 -0500
From: Glen Wilson <rovercar at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [ROVERNET - UK] P5 values
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Message-ID: <478B5363.4060401 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Dirk Burrowes wrote:
> Rover P5 Coupe 3.5 V8 LHD from second Swiss owner in a stunning original
> condition. Superb original car, with no work to do, just drive and enjoy!
> Over 250 Classic and sports cars in stock. PRICE IN EUROS : 17950
>
> In US dollars that's over $26,000
>
> www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-page.php/carno/27594
>
What this really shows is that there are huge differences between the
two markets. That's why my old 3500S ended up going back to England to
be restored: People in the UK have a higher appreciation of that
particular model than we do in the USA.
There's also been an MGB roadster on eBay this past week with an asking
price of $26,000, and Amphicars are regularly selling for $50k and
higher in the USA. As far as I'm concerned, an MGB is still just an MGB
no matter what you do to it or how much you spend restoring it, and you
can buy a LOT of interesting automobiles for less than $26k. Who would
want a $26,000 MGB, anyway? It's just another MGB, not a prototype that
ran at LeMans or something that Jim Clark put a lot of miles on. It's a
bit like that old joke about the guy selling apples on the street in New
York City for $500 per apple: Nobody's bought one yet, but I only have
to sell one for it to be a great month! A $500 apple is still inherently
just an apple no matter how much you polish it, even if it's gold plated.
If seventy #4 and thirty #5 example of the 1967 3-litre Coupe sold in
the States during the past two or three years, then we'd have a pretty
good idea of what the true market value of the 1967 3-litre Coupe was in
the US market. As it stands, there isn't really what I would term a
"market" for Rovers in the USA. Just about every sale is simply a
one-off purchase where price is determined by how much the buyer has to
spend and how much he wants the car. In a market, there would be four
excellent P5s being offered for sale at the same time competing for the
buyer's money.
You also can't just get up one sunny morning and sell your $26k MGB for
what you paid for it, while you COULD get your money back pretty quickly
for the 99% perfect MGB you "only" paid $15k a month earlier. You would
have a lot more trouble getting your $26k back for the P5 in the USA
than for the MGB.
Just because one P5 is offered for sale at $26k doesn't make that the
"market price" for the type of P5. Even if someone pays $26k for the
car, it still isn't a market price. It may just mean that Dick
Darlington got a good bonus at the end of the year and the seller lucked
out. When something like ten similar P5s change hands within something
like twenty-four months for very similar prices, then I'll agree that we
may know what the "market value" of a P5 Rover is in the USA.
But that will never happen over here because a.) there are not enough of
any given year/model of Rover, and b.) the few that we have vary all
over the place in condition, and c.) not enough of them change hands in
any given period of time.
So, I'm not "disrespecting the marque" or "trying to drive down the
value of our precious Rovers" (as has been said before). I simply don't
feel that there is really a known market value for Rovers in the US that
can be supported with verifiable data. Sometimes, I almost believe that
there is a market value for P6s in the US because they tend to sell in
certain price ranges, but those prices tend to be what ANY running
40-year-old car will bring, even if it's a four-door Ford Falcon.
Glen
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:08:42 +0000 (GMT)
From: JULIET KEILER <lingfield51 at btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ROVERNET - UK] P5 values
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Message-ID: <435238.9447.qm at web86013.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Agree with your comments Glen, the 'what is it worth' question is impossible
to answer. It's worth what someone is prepared to pay for it...my only
comment would be you can always drop the price with a handshake but cannot
put it up. However this can work against you, a very nice P5 Coupe about 8
miles from me was up for sale on the P5 Club site for #5000, look very nice
in the pics but a little to rich for my budget. However it late sold on Ebay
(which can be a resonable price guide) for under #3000. Had he lsied it @
#3000 maybe he would have had more intrest and then who knows he may have
actually got more for it!
Alan Francis (partviking)
----- Original Message ----
From: Glen Wilson <rovercar at comcast.net>
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Sent: Monday, 14 January, 2008 12:19:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ROVERNET - UK] P5 values
Dirk Burrowes wrote:
> Rover P5 Coupe 3.5 V8 LHD from second Swiss owner in a stunning original
> condition. Superb original car, with no work to do, just drive and enjoy!
> Over 250 Classic and sports cars in stock. PRICE IN EUROS : 17950
>
> In US dollars that's over $26,000
>
> www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-page.php/carno/27594
>
What this really shows is that there are huge differences between the
two markets. That's why my old 3500S ended up going back to England to
be restored: People in the UK have a higher appreciation of that
particular model than we do in the USA.
There's also been an MGB roadster on eBay this past week with an asking
price of $26,000, and Amphicars are regularly selling for $50k and
higher in the USA. As far as I'm concerned, an MGB is still just an MGB
no matter what you do to it or how much you spend restoring it, and you
can buy a LOT of interesting automobiles for less than $26k. Who would
want a $26,000 MGB, anyway? It's just another MGB, not a prototype that
ran at LeMans or something that Jim Clark put a lot of miles on. It's a
bit like that old joke about the guy selling apples on the street in New
York City for $500 per apple: Nobody's bought one yet, but I only have
to sell one for it to be a great month! A $500 apple is still inherently
just an apple no matter how much you polish it, even if it's gold plated.
If seventy #4 and thirty #5 example of the 1967 3-litre Coupe sold in
the States during the past two or three years, then we'd have a pretty
good idea of what the true market value of the 1967 3-litre Coupe was in
the US market. As it stands, there isn't really what I would term a
"market" for Rovers in the USA. Just about every sale is simply a
one-off purchase where price is determined by how much the buyer has to
spend and how much he wants the car. In a market, there would be four
excellent P5s being offered for sale at the same time competing for the
buyer's money.
You also can't just get up one sunny morning and sell your $26k MGB for
what you paid for it, while you COULD get your money back pretty quickly
for the 99% perfect MGB you "only" paid $15k a month earlier. You would
have a lot more trouble getting your $26k back for the P5 in the USA
than for the MGB.
Just because one P5 is offered for sale at $26k doesn't make that the
"market price" for the type of P5. Even if someone pays $26k for the
car, it still isn't a market price. It may just mean that Dick
Darlington got a good bonus at the end of the year and the seller lucked
out. When something like ten similar P5s change hands within something
like twenty-four months for very similar prices, then I'll agree that we
may know what the "market value" of a P5 Rover is in the USA.
But that will never happen over here because a.) there are not enough of
any given year/model of Rover, and b.) the few that we have vary all
over the place in condition, and c.) not enough of them change hands in
any given period of time.
So, I'm not "disrespecting the marque" or "trying to drive down the
value of our precious Rovers" (as has been said before). I simply don't
feel that there is really a known market value for Rovers in the US that
can be supported with verifiable data. Sometimes, I almost believe that
there is a market value for P6s in the US because they tend to sell in
certain price ranges, but those prices tend to be what ANY running
40-year-old car will bring, even if it's a four-door Ford Falcon.
Glen
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:43:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Eric Russell <p6rovers at yahoo.com>
Subject: [ROVERNET - UK] This is annoying!!
To: Rovernet <rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com>
Message-ID: <588004.77384.qm at web34311.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Folks,
<Begin rant>
I don't know if "js" is a member of our group or not
but I am receiving the following message:
Your message:
To: js at bell.blackberry.net
Subject: Re: [ROVERNET - UK] Went to see the P5B Coupe
in Turlock,
California...
Sent Date: 12:54 +0000
has not been delivered to the recipient's BlackBerry
Handheld.
The returned error status is <GENERAL_ERROR>
This seems similar to messages received when people go
on holiday and set up "Out of Office" automatic
replies.
These messages clutter up the Rovernet server, the
archives, and,........... my life!
If you are going on holiday, click on the link *at the
bottom of *every* Rovernet message, go to your
personal settings and select "Nomail" while you are
away.
If you are forwarding messages to a hand-held device,
please insure that you know what you are doing so that
*your* error messages don't become our/my problem.
</Rant>
Eric
List Manager
Webmaster of The Rover Car Club of Canada
Website: http://www.roverclub.ca/
Webmaster of a variety of sites from:
http://www.websrus.ca
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:51:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Laine Colley <twinklsun at yahoo.com>
Subject: [ROVERNET - UK] Linus' 110
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Message-ID: <642652.62805.qm at web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Linus,
If you still have trouble finding what you need here, you may
want to try joining the P4 Drivers Guild (UK) online forum:
http://www.roverp4dg.org.uk/phpBB2/index.php
http://www.roverp4dg.org.uk/
Many of the chaps in the guild also have land and range rovers
and are happy to share info.
Laine
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:49:09 +0100
From: Tomas B?rjeson <tmastaff at tripnet.se>
Subject: Re: [ROVERNET - UK] westlake head questions
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Message-ID: <20080114170613.C0FFC508011 at mailrelay1.bredband.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
Hi
I don4t like to be a nitpicker (OK, perhaps a
little..) but I think I should point out that it
is probably easier to find parts for a Weslake head.
Harry Weslake would probably rotate in his grave
like a Spinning Top if he could see how his name is always misspelled.
BR
Tomas
At 09:12 2008-01-14, you wrote:
>Hi Linus, Check out
>http://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/ They carry a
>huge range you can search by part no and they
>ship overseas. Regards Alan Francis (partviking)
>----- Original Message ---- From: Linus Tremaine
><travellak1 at netzero.net> To:
>rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com Sent: Monday, 14
>January, 2008 2:00:33 AM Subject: [ROVERNET -
>UK] westlake head questions Hi, I am interested
>in finding out some information on the
>similarities between the engine in my land rover
>and the rover p4 with the westlake head. Land
>rover put a IOE 6 cylinder in 811 long wheelbase
>trucks between 1966 and 1968. Land rover
>suppliers have pretty much quit supporting them
>entirely and I need some parts. Does anyone on
>this list live in california near the bay area?
>I would like to see an engine to compare
>visually if possible. I know that I have the
>westlake head. I need to find valve cover
>gaskets, inlet valves, valve guides and such.
>thanks, Linus
>_______________________________________________
>rovernet mailing list rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
>To unsubscribe, go to this web page, look near
>the bottom and follow instructions:
>http://mailman.nipltd.com/mailman/listinfo/rovernet
>Back-up list and photos at: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rover_net/
>
>_______________________________________________
>rovernet mailing list
>rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
>To unsubscribe, go to this web page, look near
>the bottom and follow instructions:
>http://mailman.nipltd.com/mailman/listinfo/rovernet
>Back-up list and photos at:
>http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rover_net/
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:08:26 -0800
From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" <smokeandsteam at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ROVERNET - UK] Value of P5 b's
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Message-ID:
<204ec4390801140908y16ae6885i88cb3a8da01fe23e at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On 1/13/08, Dirk Burrowes <dirk at vy-tek.com> wrote:
> Some of us are living in the past with respect to value. P5s and of coarse
> the Coupe have been rising steadily in value overseas. I know as I have
kept
> a careful eye on things. A outstanding example can run as much as #12,000
> (that's UK pounds)
But the point is that this is not an outstanding example - it's a very
tired and slightly rusty non-runner, The price may be slightly higher
than what you would pay for one in a shed in the UK; it's not
seriously out of whack but neither is it a steal, though obviously you
save the cost of shipping one over the water. (Checking some examples
of rusty/tatty but roadworthy cars sold in the last year or so
suggests that #750-1000 is a pretty good reflection of the market -
non runners in sheds are much harder to find than they used to be )
Where the market has taken off is for good 3= litres and especially
Coupis which are really starting to head up in price and that is
having an effect at the lower end of the market as the good examples
get further out of the reach of the enthusiast with more skill and
enthusiasm than disposable income.
Cars with the rust removed but slightly scruffy chrome, leather and
carpets can run in the #4,000-6000 range; #7000-10000 gets you a
decent restored or well maintained original example with few cosmetic
issues and usually some sort of a service history, and the really
fancy ones hit the silly money (up to #15,000 and onwards). LHD cars
may go for a good deal more in some markets.
Aidrian
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:23:06 -0800
From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" <smokeandsteam at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ROVERNET - UK] P5 values
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Message-ID:
<204ec4390801140923s5123b2c3s5246dede2701147c at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Or from the P5 club website...a mere $US37000
http://www.roverp5club.org.uk/cars-for-sale.htm
>>1969 Left hand drive 3.5 Litre Coupe, Admiralty Blue with Silver
Birch roof. Factory installed Webasto sun roof. Original unrestored
mint condition. Bought new from the factory by Georg Hansson, famous
for the 3 litre P5 Drophead that he commissioned from Panelcraft,
Battersea. This was his next car. Unique car with all service history
documented from new. No expense spared in maintenance from new until
today. EUR 25.000<<
On 1/14/08, Dirk Burrowes <dirk at vy-tek.com> wrote:
> PRICE IN EUROS : 17950
>
> In US dollars that's over $26,000
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:30:07 +0000 (GMT)
From: JULIET KEILER <lingfield51 at btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ROVERNET - UK] Value of P5 b's
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Message-ID: <22792.40681.qm at web86013.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Cars with the rust removed but slightly scruffy chrome, leather and
carpets can run in the #4,000-6000 range; Mmmmm I'm not so sure
#7000-10000 gets you a
decent restored or well maintained original example with few cosmetic
issues and usually some sort of a service history, Mmm I'm even less sure.
I think the high end prices do get asked for but #4-6000 with scruffy
chrome, leather and carpets are, in reality not achievable, even though I
accept people do ask. I think here in the UK there is a PERCEPTION a running
P5 or P5B with MOT is worth in excess of #2500 but if you check out the
prices actually realised on Ebay for such cars in 'scruffy' condition they
rarely reach the heady heights a seller asks. If you're prepared to check
out all the websites good examples can still be obtained for #3000 and
whilst not perfect I would not describe any of the aformentioned parts on
these cars as 'scruffy' though I accept they may need some work.
Regards
alan francis (partviking)
----- Original Message ----
From: Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam at gmail.com>
To: rovernet at lyris.ccdata.com
Sent: Monday, 14 January, 2008 5:08:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ROVERNET - UK] Value of P5 b's
On 1/13/08, Dirk Burrowes <dirk at vy-tek.com> wrote:
> Some of us are living in the past with respect to value. P5s and of coarse
> the Coupe have been rising steadily in value overseas. I know as I have
kept
> a careful eye on things. A outstanding example can run as much as #12,000
> (that's UK pounds)
But the point is that this is not an outstanding example - it's a very
tired and slightly rusty non-runner, The price may be slightly higher
than what you would pay for one in a shed in the UK; it's not
seriously out of whack but neither is it a steal, though obviously you
save the cost of shipping one over the water. (Checking some examples
of rusty/tatty but roadworthy cars sold in the last year or so
suggests that #750-1000 is a pretty good reflection of the market -
non runners in sheds are much harder to find than they used to be )
Where the market has taken off is for good 3= litres and especially
Coupis which are really starting to head up in price and that is
having an effect at the lower end of the market as the good examples
get further out of the reach of the enthusiast with more skill and
enthusiasm than disposable income.
Cars with the rust removed but slightly scruffy chrome, leather and
carpets can run in the #4,000-6000 range; #7000-10000 gets you a
decent restored or well maintained original example with few cosmetic
issues and usually some sort of a service history, and the really
fancy ones hit the silly money (up to #15,000 and onwards). LHD cars
may go for a good deal more in some markets.
Aidrian
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------------------------------
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Would digest users please change the subject and show which topic to which
you are referring. The archive can't work properly without your help.
Thanks.
End of rovernet Digest, Vol 63, Issue 3
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